In this post I will be addressing the claims made by the anti-Trinitarian polemicist and arian apologist Greg Stafford in respect to the epistle of Jude. Stafford seeks to employ Jude’s statement about Michael to refute the Trinitarian position that the Angel of YHWH who appears all throughout the Hebrew Bible is not a creature.
The following comments where Stafford was responding to a Trinitarian can be found here. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFpczOK4Bxw&lc=UgyiRox5wYNq2QundZB4AaABAg.
You missed the whole point, numb nuts. Neither can rebuke Satan and ask YHWH to do it, proving neither one is YHWH. When you actually watch the video and demonstrate understanding of my points, we can try again. Until then, you just humiliated yourself by showing you can’t answer me! We win again!
@CWJahTube Also, the “Angel of YHWH” is appointed over Israel in Exodus 23, which is why he’s contesting Joshua with Satan in Zechariah. So why is Michael there according to Jude doing the same thing, to the same person, using the same words which defer to YHWH? Because neither is YHWH and Michael is the Angel of Jaho(h). The Catholic faith is a Dragon perversion of the Bible. Get out while you still can and worship “one God, the Father”!–1 Corinthians 8:4-6.
@Doc7-mf2fe You just sodomized yourself. Congratulations!
@CWJahTube @edvinekberg Thanks, but you’re still not listening. The angel of the Lord uses the same words Jude says Michael used to Satan and which words show he deferred to God, instead of addressing Satan directly. If the angel of YHWH is YHWH, and not Michael, why does he use the same words as Michael and defer to YHWH? Answer this question, please, since you keep missing or ignoring it.
@edvinekberg The angel speaks as the Lord in Zechariah for the same reason he does in Acts 7:30-31. There, like here, an angel is explicitly identified as speaking as the “Lord.” But apart from speaking for the Lord, the angels are not the Lord, which is why the angels cannot rebuke Satan, even when speaking as YHWH. God addresses Satan directly when he comes before him at the time for such meetings as we see in Job (1:6; 2:1) and in the Psalms (82:1-10). The Bible also teaches all of God’s spirits are “made spirits” (Hebrews 1:1, 13, quoting the Psalms), further proving the angel of YHWH cannot be God.
@edvinekberg I already explained that Jude proves deferring to YHWH like Michael did, with the same words, means you’re not YHWH. You agree with me they both defer to YHWH, PROVING neither Michael or the angel of YHWH are YHWH, which is also obvious from Hebrews 1:7, 13, quoting Psalms, PROVING all angels are “made spirits.” So too summarize: 1. Neither Michael or the angel of YHWH are YHWH as they both avoid rebuking Satan using the same words and ASK YHWH TO REBUKE SATAN, which makes no sense if either one is YHWH (and you know it), and 2. Michael and the angel of YHWH are spirits sent forth for service just like Hebrews and Psalms teaches, PROVING Michael and the angel of YHWH are “made spirits.” **GAME OVER**
@edvinekberg Again, they’re angels! God is not an angel. You guys are crazy…
@edvinekberg Deferring to someone else to do something means you’re not that someone, in this case YHWH. That’s why Jude wrote the same thing about Michael’s use of the SAME WORDS! I’m still waiting for how anything in this video is “bad” as you wrote in your first comment. You haven’t shown one single thing wrong with my arguments and you continue avoiding the main points. Nice job making our side look good and your side look pathetic and unbiblical!
@edvinekberg Obviously, you don’t understand how God talks DIRECTLY AS GOD THROUGH ANGELS. Did you read Acts 7? How many times does it say ANGELS were saying what GOD said? Did you read Exodus 23? What does it say God does with his angel? He speaks and the angels then speaks for and as him. It’s really simple and it has nothing to do with the Trinity, which is why ANGELS CANT REBUKE SATAN **and why** ALL ANGELS ARE “MADE SPIRITS.” You have not and you CANNOT answer these arguments.
@edvinekberg You worship angels as God in total violation of Colossians 2:18. Heretic! God is not an angel. Trinitarians worship angels everyone, the “made spirits” of Hebrews 1:7, 13 and the Psalms!
@edvinekberg Again, you are not listening. What does Jude use Michael’s words to Satan to prove? I guarantee you won’t answer this, because if you do it’s over… and you know it. Hence, you keep avoiding Jude!
@edvinekberg God speaks through the angel, just as the text says, to tell Satan the angel isn’t going to rebuke him. Because only God can! You just lost if that was all you have left, since that is in fact my whole point!
@CWJahTube @edvinekberg Hebrews 1:7 and 13 says “He MAKES HIS ANGELS SPIRITS.” So you’re missing the point. I know angels are messengers, but Hebrews and Psalms aren’t talking about human spirits! These are called “flames of fire.” Those messengers are all also called “made spirits” The angel of YHWH is one of “his angels” who are MADE SPIRITS in Hebrews and in Psalms. **GAME OVER**
@edvinekberg I already answered how God speaking through the angel of YHWH is telling Satan the angel isn’t going to rebuke him but God will, just like I’ve been telling you! I answered you on this 4 hours ago and even cited Job 1:6 and 2:1 and Pslam [sic] 82 as examples of how God meets with Satan, which is not through Michael or the angel of YHWH, both of whom are “made spirits.” Since you’re no longer listening and repeating your already answered arguments, please stop posting. You had plenty of time and you failed. One last time: deferring to someone else like Micheal did proves you’re not that someone else per Jude, so neither Michael or the angel of YHWH are YHWH. Also, Hebrews and Psalms proves God’s angels are servants and “made spirits,” including Michael and the angel of YHWH, PROVING again neither is YHWH.
DIFFERING CONTEXTS
Besides the fact that Stafford is all over the place in his “responses,” his claims about Zechariah 3:2 and Jude 1:9 are simply fallacious. A careful reading of these texts shows that they are not at all analogous and the reasons given for YHWH’s Angel and Michael employing the phrase “the Lord rebuke you” are not even the same.
Jude explicitly states that Michael knew better than to go up against Satan to condemn him, which is why he had to invoke the Lord to do so:
“Michael didn’t dare to judge the devil. He didn’t say the devil was guilty of saying evil things. Instead, Michael said, ‘May the Lord judge you!’” NIRV
However, nowhere in Zechariah are we told that this is the reason for YHWH’s Angel invoking the same formula. In fact, unlike what we find in the case of Michael, the Angel in Zechariah is expressly identified as YHWH, which is why he even has the power to forgive sins even though this is something only YHWH does:
“Then he showed me Joshua, the chief priest, standing in front of the Messenger of Yahweh. Satan the Accuser was standing at Joshua’s right side to accuse him.Yahweh said to Satan, “I, Yahweh, silence you, Satan! I, Yahweh, who has chosen Jerusalem, silence you! Isn’t this man like a burning log snatched from a fire?’ Joshua was wearing filthy clothes and was standing in front of the Messenger. The Messenger said to those who were standing in front of him, ‘Remove Joshua’s filthy clothes.’ Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken your sin away from you, and I will dress you in fine clothing.’” Zechariah 3:1-4 NOG – Cf. Exod. 23:20-23; Mark 2:5-12
Therefore, the employment of the same formula by YHWH’s Angel does nothing to prove that he did not have the authority to rebuke Satan since the context is not the same as that of Jude 1:8-9.
This is why the following commentary aptly notes in reference to Zech. 3:2 and any alleged connection with Jude 1:9:
(Note: The application made in the Epistle of Jude (Jde 1:9) of the formula “Jehovah rebuke thee,” namely, that Michael the archangel did not venture to execute upon Satan the κρίσις βλασφημίας, does not warrant the conclusion that the angel of the Lord places himself below Jehovah by these words. The words “Jehovah rebuke thee” are a standing formula for the utterance of the threat of a divine judgment, from which no conclusion can be drawn as to the relation in which the person using it stood to God. Moreover, Jude had not our vision in his mind, but another event, which has not been preserved in the canonical Scriptures.) (Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament; emphasis mine)
All this proves is how desperate Stafford is to find something, anything, that will help his case. Stafford’s objections simply highlight just how utterly weak and flimsy his case against the Trinity happens to be.
GOD SPEAKS OF HIMSELF IN THE THIRD PERSON
This leads me to my next point.
All throughout the God-breathed Scriptures we find cases where YHWH refers to himself in the third person:
“Behold, I am going to awaken the Medes against them, Who will not think about silver or take pleasure in gold. And their bows will dash the young men to pieces, They will not even have compassion on the fruit of the womb, Nor will their eye pity children. And it will be that Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the honor of the Chaldeans’ pride, Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.” Isaiah 13:17-19
“Thus says Yahweh of hosts, ‘The sons of Israel are oppressed, And the sons of Judah as well; And all who took them captive have held them fast; They have refused to let them go. Their Redeemer is strong, Yahweh of hosts is His name; HE will vigorously plead their case So that HE may bring relief to the earth, But turmoil to the inhabitants of Babylon. A sword against the Chaldeans,’ declares Yahweh, ‘And against the inhabitants of Babylon And against her officials and her wise men!… Therefore the desert creatures will live there along with the jackals; The ostriches also will live in it, And it will never again be lived in Or dwelt in from generation to generation. As when God overthrew Sodom And Gomorrah with its neighbors,’ declares Yahweh, ‘No man will live there, Nor will any son of man sojourn in it.’” Jeremiah 50:33-35, 39-40
“‘I overthrew you as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand delivered from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me,’ declares Yahweh.” Amos 4:11
“Yahweh also said to Moses, ‘Go to the people and set them apart as holy today and tomorrow, and let them wash their garments; and let them be ready for the third day, for on the third day Yahweh will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people. And you shall set bounds for the people all around, saying, “Beware that you do not go up on the mountain or touch the border of it; whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. No hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or surely shot through; whether beast or man, he shall not live.” When the ram’s horn sounds a long blast, they shall come up to the mountain.’ So Moses went down from the mountain to the people and set the people apart as holy, and they washed their garments. And he said to the people, ‘Be ready for the third day; do not go near a woman.’ So it happened on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunder and lightning flashes and a thick cloud upon the mountain and a very loud trumpet sound, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled. And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. Now Mount Sinai was all in smoke because Yahweh descended upon it in fire; and its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain trembled violently. And the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder; then Moses spoke and God answered him with thunder. And Yahweh came down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain; and Yahweh called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. Then Yahweh spoke to Moses, ‘Go down, warn the people, lest they break through to Yahweh to see, and many of them perish. Also let the priests who come near to Yahweh set themselves apart as holy, lest Yahweh break out against them.’ And Moses said to Yahweh, ‘The people cannot come up to Mount Sinai, for You warned us, saying, “Set bounds about the mountain, and set it apart as holy.”’ Then Yahweh said to him, ‘Go down and come up again, you and Aaron with you; but do not let the priests and the people break through to come up to Yahweh, lest He break out against them.’ So Moses went down to the people and told them.” Exodus 19:10-25
“As for you also, because of the blood of your covenant, I have set your prisoners free from the waterless pit. Return to the stronghold, O prisoners who have the hope; This very day I am declaring that I will return double to you. For I will bend Judah as My bow; I will fill the bow with Ephraim. And I will rouse up your sons, O Zion, against your sons, O Greece; And I will make you like a mighty man’s sword. Then Yahweh will appear over them, And His arrow will go forth like lightning; And Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet And will go in the storm winds of the south. Yahweh of hosts will defend them. And they will consume and trample on the stones of a sling; And they will drink and roar as with wine; And they will be filled like a sacrificial bowl, Drenched like the corners of the altar. And Yahweh their God will save them in that day As the flock of His people; For they are as the stones of a crown, Sparkling in His land.” Zechariah 9:11-16
“My anger burns against the shepherds, And I will visit punishment upon the male goats; For Yahweh of hosts has visited His flock, the house of Judah, And will make them like His splendid horse in battle. From them will come the cornerstone, From them the tent peg, From them the bow of battle, From them every good taskmaster, all of them together. And they will be as mighty men, Treading down the enemy in the mire of the streets in battle; And they will battle, for Yahweh will be with them; And the riders on horses will be put to shame. I will make the house of Judah mighty, And I will save the house of Joseph, And I will cause them to return, Because I have had compassion on them; And they will be as though I had not rejected them, For I am Yahweh their God, and I will answer them. And Ephraim will be like a mighty man, And their heart will be glad as if from wine; Indeed, their children will see it and be glad; Their heart will rejoice in Yahweh. I will whistle for them to gather them together, For I have redeemed them; And they will be as numerous as they were before. And I will sow them among the peoples, And they will remember Me in far countries, And they with their children will live and turn back. Then I will cause them to return from the land of Egypt And gather them from Assyria; And I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon Until no room can be found for them. And they will pass through the sea of distress, And He will strike the waves in the sea, So that all the depths of the Nile will dry up; And the pride of Assyria will be brought down, And the scepter of Egypt will depart. And I will make them mighty in Yahweh, And in His name they will walk,’ declares Yahweh.” Zechariah 10:3-12
“The oracle of the word of Yahweh concerning Israel. Thus declares Yahweh who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him, ‘Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples all around. Now the one in siege against Jerusalem will also be against Judah. But it will be in that day, that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who heave it up will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it. In that day,’ declares Yahweh, ‘I will strike every horse with bewilderment and his rider with madness. But I will open my eyes to watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, “A strong support for us are the inhabitants of Jerusalem through Yahweh of hosts, their God.” In that day I will make the clans of Judah like a fiery laver among pieces of wood and a fiery torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while Jerusalem will again be inhabited in its own place—in Jerusalem. Yahweh also will save the tents of Judah first so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah. In that day Yahweh will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who stumbles among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of Yahweh before them. And it will be in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.’” Zechariah 12:1-10
This explains why certain English renderings translate the verse of Zech. 3:2 in the following manner:
“Yahweh said to Satan, ‘I, Yahweh, silence you, Satan! I, Yahweh, who has chosen Jerusalem, silence you! Isn’t this man like a burning log snatched from a fire?’” NOG
“The Lord said to Satan, ‘I, the Lord, silence you, Satan! I, the Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, silence you! Isn’t this man like a burning log snatched from a fire?’” GW
“Next the Messenger-Angel showed me the high priest Joshua. He was standing before God’s Angel where the Accuser showed up to accuse him. Then God said to the Accuser, ‘I, God, rebuke you, Accuser! I rebuke you and choose Jerusalem. Surprise! Everything is going up in flames, but I reach in and pull out Jerusalem!’” MSG
“And the Lord said to Satan, ‘I, the Lord, reject your accusations, Satan. Yes, the Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebukes you. This man is like a burning stick that has been snatched from the fire.’” NLT
“Eternal One (to the Accuser): I am reprimanding you, Accuser. I, the Eternal One, have chosen Jerusalem as My own, saved her from My fiery wrath as if she were a wooden poker just pulled from destruction in a fire.” VOICE
In other words, the Angel isn’t invoking some other as YHWH to rebuke Satan. Rather, it is the Angel, who is referring to himself as YHWH in the third person, that is actually rebuking the Accuser of the brethren.
WORSHIPING YHWH’S ANGEL
Stafford appealed to Colossians 2:18 to condemn Trinitarians for worshiping the divine Angel:
“Some people enjoy pretending they aren’t proud. They worship angels. But don’t let people like that judge you. These people tell you every little thing about what they have seen. They are proud of their useless ideas. That’s because their minds are not guided by the Holy Spirit.” NIRV
He seemingly forgot or is simply unaware of the fact that the Hebrew Bible itself shows that this particular Messenger was indeed worshiped without ever rebuking folks for doing so:
“Then Yahweh exposed the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of Yahweh standing in the road with his sword drawn in his hand, and he bowed down and worshiped (wayyiqqoḏ wayyishtacḥu) to his face. The angel of Yahweh said to him, ‘Why have you struck this donkey three times? Look, I have come out as an adversary because your conduct is perverse before me.’” Numbers 22:31-32 LEB
“When Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, ‘Are you one of us or one of our enemies?’He answered, “Neither one! I am here as the commander of Yahweh’s army.’ Immediately, Joshua bowed with his face touching the ground and worshiped (wayyishtacḥu). He asked, ‘Sir, what do you want to tell me?’The commander of Yahweh’s army said to Joshua, ‘Take off your sandals because this place where you are standing is holy.’ So Joshua did as he was told.” Joshua 5:13-15 NOG
Now this places Stafford in somewhat of a dilemma.
Since Stafford readily admits that the Bible prohibits the worship of angels, and since the Angel of Revelation who stands in the place of God/Christ absolutely refused to receive any kind of worship, despite his being God’s agent/emissary,
“At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, ‘Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.’” Revelation 19:10 NIV
“The angel said to me, ‘These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, SENT HIS angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.’ ‘Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.’ I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, ‘Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!’… ‘I, Jesus, have sent MY angelto give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.’” Revelation 22:6-9, 16 NIV
This, therefore, means that either the NT is contradicting the OT, or that YHWH’s Angel is NOT A creature. Rather, this specific Messenger is YHWH Almighty himself who is personally distinct from YHWH–which is why he can be his Messenger–while also being truly God in nature.
Hence, seeing that the Angel is God himself functioning in the role of a Messenger he, therefore, can be worshiped without this violating the Bible’s prohibiting believers from worshiping angels.
With foregoing in view make sure to read the addendum to this post: JUDE’S EPISTLE REFUTES ARIANISM.
FURTHER READING
THE RABBIS’ DILEMMA: WORSHIPING GOD’S ANGEL
CREATED ANGELIC BEINGS AS JEHOVAH GOD?
JUDE TESTIFIES: JESUS IS NOT MICHAEL!
Michael’s Contention With Satan
JUDE TESTIFIES THAT JESUS IS YHWH ALMIGHTY!
Jesus Christ: The Lord God Who Saved and Punished Israel During the Exodus
Answering Islam Blog 
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